Comments on: Suicide=Hell?

By: MIke

MIke — Sat, 27 Nov 2010 02:36:19 +0000

Hmmm… Interesting response, Dave (of course I would expect nothing less!).

By: thefallencleric

thefallencleric — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 21:09:09 +0000

Mike — Hmm. Not convinced! I don’t believe the command to not kill applies to suicide any more than it applies to killing in war. They are just different animals. I actually think it would fall more under the command to honor one’s parents, like you said. Of course the point of my post was not to argue that suicide is good, moral, or otherwise not sin. It was simply to argue that it does not fast-track a person into hell, and on that we agree.

By: Mike

Mike — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 13:42:31 +0000

I am revisiting this year – old topic with much interest. In your initial post, you said, ” Do you think God would have to issue a command to get people to not kill themselves?” I believe He did! I might have these out of order, but I think there were two commandments which tell people (in a round about way) not to kill themselves.

First, commandment #6 states, “Though shall not murder.” (also translated as “Though shall not kill). Clearly, the commandment does not distinguish between killing someone else or even ones self – it simply states not to kill. To commit suicide is to commit murder – murder of the self.

Secondly – and I agree before you argue this one – that this is stretch; I’m throwing it out there anyway! Commandment #5 states, “Honor thy father and mother.” Is there a greater dishonor to ones parents that to take away their most precious gift, ones life?

So, Dave,” Do you think God would have to issue a command to get people to not kill themselves?” Maybe! Let the discussion begin… :~)

On a side bar… My sister committed suicide about 30 years ago. To this day I have never believed she went to hell.

By: thefallencleric

thefallencleric — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:57:43 +0000

My post isn’t on Calvinist vs. Wesleyan theology. This post is about suicide. Regarding your comments, I do hear you loud and clear, and disagree firmly on many levels. The whole “eternal security” argument is tiresome, IMO. Is this thing between us and God a relationship on any meaningful level? If so, a relationship can be severed, against the wishes of the other party. If it cannot be, it is not a relationship but something else entirely. I don’t care to argue the theology of it for a simple reason: people far smarter than both of us combined have not been able to agree on this. Which is yet one more reason to suspect that one’s opinion on this, whatever it may be, is probably not of great consequence anyway. Thanks for taking the time to comment, CP.

By: CP

CP — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:53:14 +0000

“Will you be separated from your children because of one single act they commit, however heinous? Of course not” My question would then be: Will you separate (or reverse your adoption of them) if they commit many? If so, then how many? And if many is just “many many,” then what kind of Father is that, one that would renounce or deny He adopted a child based on the fact that he made many many bad choices? Salvation is then by works and not by undeserving Grace. However, given that you mentioned about the tree and its fruits, it is not to say that we go on doing whatever we want, because we are now “saved”. Good fruit confirms that the tree is good, and bad fruit confirms that the tree is bad. So the fruit indicates the state of your heart (the kind of tree you really are) and whether you have actually been reached by Grace and transformed into a brand new tree of good fruit. So a person that says “I am always saved so I will go on sinning, so that grace may abound” is actually confirming that he has not been transformed, therefore not saved, or “losing” salvation, because he never had it. I agree that no particular sin can send someone straight to hell, even if they committed it right before they died, that’s where Grace comes in for those who are truly saved. But to say that God will “honor” our decision to “sever” our relationship with Him is to say that our will is greater than His and that the power of the cross is only determined by each human, that we can somehow once again killed the new man He created in us through the power of Jesus’ sacrifice, that his sacrifice wasn’t powerful enough to save us.

By: wildwinddave

wildwinddave — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:07:06 +0000

Trevor — I don’t see my position as being in the least bit Calvinistic, or really having much at all to do with that debate. (I agree with you that extreme Arminianism and extreme Calvinism both have their own neuroses.) The question isn’t at all about whether or not someone can lose their salvation, because I take for granted that of course it’s possible. The question is about how that happens. Will you be separated from your children because of one single act they commit, however heinous? Of course not. If God loves us more than we love our own kids, then this could not be simpler, in my view. We will simply not be separated from God because of any one act. That’s not to say we are not free to make a decision to sever that relationship and that God would not honor that decision. But that is quite another thing.

By: Trevor Mast

Trevor Mast — Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:25:00 +0000

I guess we’ve drifted into the topic of Calvanistic/Armenian beliefs. I think that both extremes lead to disaster.

If a person that has “eternal security” thus thinks it’s safe to live like the devil, there seems to be something that just doesn’t make sense to me about that.

Then, if a person is so insecure that they are continually worried about their salvation, that seems to be a cruel way for God to treat people.

Somewhere the truth must be in the middle? Where? good question. I don’t know.

I have purposefully stayed away from “proof text’s” becuase I think we all know what they are. Instead I am left with “I thinks” and “It seems” and “it feels”.

I’m not sure there’s a “satisfying” answer to this question. At least not for me. If you could settle this issue for me, I am sincerely all ears and ready to listen.

So that’s why I’m really as confident about it as you are.

By: wildwinddave

wildwinddave — Mon, 02 Nov 2009 03:58:37 +0000

Yeah, Tim, it’s probably a topic for another post, but fortunately I’ve already written it. Check out http://thefallencleric.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/will-non-christians-be-saved/ for thoughts on the issue you bring up.

Also, you may wish to check out a sermon where I treated this topic in some depth, available at http://www.wildwindweb.org/uploads/audio/cwithoutj2.mp3.

By: Tim Mattila

Tim Mattila — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:32:48 +0000

I agree completely that no one will be sent to hell for the act of suicide…that being said, some one who does commit suicide who is not already a follower of Christ would then go to hell. So it begs the question is there any chance of salvation post death? This may be a topic for a whole new blog post but, I thought I would throw it out there.

By: wildwinddave

wildwinddave — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:00:21 +0000

I hear what you’re saying, Trevor, and am pretty familiar with the mechanisms of it and how someone comes to this spot (though I appreciate your well laid-out description). Having said that, I still just don’t connect at all with the “taking the chance” idea. I just don’t believe ANY discrete act of sin sends someone to hell. That idea just stands completely outside of my best comprehension of spiritual matters.